访谈 ｜ 杨轩 海若镜
文 ｜ 杨轩
Byran Johnson，可能是全球最快成名的抗衰达人。他身上有很多标签：硅谷抗衰富豪、永生科技狂人、"姨化吸血鬼"、"试药小白鼠"、"天山童姥"等等。
在众多渴望长寿的科技新贵中，Bryan不一定是氪金投资最多的，但他应该是对自己最狠的。为了抗衰逆龄，他遵从着"苦行僧"般的作息：每晚8点半睡觉、早4点半起床；每天摄入卡路里低于2000大卡，过午不食；每周运动7天。除了每天吃下几十粒保健品，他还尝试了一系列监管尚未批准的前沿科技：换血、注射干细胞、基因疗法等。
从2021年启动计划至今，47岁的他每年氪金200万美元，宣称已将生理年龄追回了5.1岁，自己的衰老速度已经降低至0.48，相当于一年只老去6个月。他还公布了自己多项生物标志物数据，比如睡前静息心率44次/分，夜间勃起时长超过3小时，卧推110公斤......
如今，"Don’t die不死"和"逆转年龄"，已经成为他的第一目标和使命。
这种执着，在商场或技术精进上，会被认为是一种极端理性和上进；但施加在自己的身体上，却会让人觉得是有违天理的"疯狂"。一路围观他抗衰试验的网友们，热衷于预测他的死亡方式："如果他死于癌症，一切将成奇观"，"有一天，他会被西兰花噎死。"
调侃之外，其实这位"抗衰急先锋"在全球已经拥有了相当多的追随者，他们渴望活得更久、更有活力，愿意模仿Byran的清规戒律。其中就包括一位来自中国的富二代，他正尝试和Bryan合作，在中国北京、重庆开办两家长寿诊所。
Bryan Johnson这位自述净资产几亿美金的硅谷富豪，为什么如此执着于不死（Don’t Die），若怕死，又为何尝试那么多"危险疗法"？近日，36氪访谈了这位世界级网红，尝试寻找"永生哥"宏伟蓝图里的隐藏副本。
回到故事最初
杨轩：你身上有很多的标签（社交媒体上常见的有抗衰狂人、姨化吸血鬼、试药小白鼠等），你自己最喜欢的三个是什么？
Bryan Johnson：我是一名逆龄运动员。我是最早迈入"不死"时代的人类之一。我是一名父亲。
[I am a rejuvenation athlete. I am one of the first Homo Sapiens, Well, the first humans that entered into the new era of Don't Die. And I am a father.]
杨轩：先回到故事最初。你说过Don't die这个项目是跟你当年创业的时候抑郁，甚至试图自杀的经历有关，但是你其实2013年就已经卖掉公司给paypal了，距离你开始长生项目，中间其实有八年的时间。这八年间发生了什么？
Bryan Johnson：我21岁的时候从厄瓜多尔回来，在那边和极度贫困的人们一起生活了两年。回到美国后，我感到很幸运。因为我们有充足的食物、有房子、有医疗、有厄瓜多尔人所没有的生活基本保障——厄瓜多尔人还住在大家泥土地板、泥巴顶的棚屋里。回到美国后，我内心难以抑制地渴望过一种对他人有用的人生，因为他们不像我这么幸运。但当时的我还不知道做什么。所以我决定创业，在30岁之前赚很多很多钱，然后用这些钱再搞清楚人生要做什么。我34岁时以接近十亿美元卖掉了我的公司，达成了20岁时定下的目标，接下来真正的问题是：我终于有了钱，现在该做什么？
[When I was 21 years old, I have, I just returned from Ecuador where I had lived for two years among extreme poverty. And I came back to the United States, and I felt fortunate. That we had sufficient food, we had a home, we had medical care, we had life basics that the people in Ecuador did not. I was living among people who were there with dirt floors.And mud huts.And when I came back to the United States, I felt a overwhelming desire to try to spend my life in a way that would be useful to other people. To give other people opportunities of life. When they weren't as fortunate as I was to be born into a place that had basic needs met. And in that moment, I decided that I wanted to spend my life doing something useful for others, but I didn't know what to do. And so I decided that I would become an entrepreneur. And make a whole bunch of money by age。And then with that money, at age 30, I would try to figure out what to do. And so I sold my company when I was 34 years old for 100 million. And so I achieved my goal.That I had set when I was 20 years old.And then the question was real, now that I finally had money, what do you do? And I did two things. ]
我做了两件事。一个是我认为未来世界的关键在于，我们是否能重构生物和物理世界，包括原子和分子层面。因为我没有科学方面的教育背景，所以我想尽可能地学习关于生物学、材料科学、化学……所有这些硬科学。所以我投资了1亿美元到一些做合成生物学、基因组学、纳米技术、计算治疗的公司。我和许多博士学历的创始人一起深入科学探索。这对我来说是非常宝贵的科学教育。
我2015年时又意识到人类需要进化自己，所以我的第二个想法是：我们能否更深入了解人脑？并基于此，来获得更好的治疗方法，比如帮助认知能力衰退的人？并通过人工智能帮、我们学习得更快更好？于是我投资了6400万美元办了一家脑机接口公司，做了一个脑机接口头盔，我每天都用。站在这些的基础上，我学到了关于科学、大脑、测量的很多东西。
[One is I thought.I think the world is going to be defined by our ability to engineer biology and the physical world, including atoms and molecules. And I wanted, because I didn't have an education in the sciences, I wanted to learn everything I could about biology and material science and chemistry and physics.And all the hard sciences. So I invested $100 million into companies that were doing things like synthetic biology, genomics, nanotechnology, computational therapeutics. And in doing that, I worked with many PhD founders in the trenches pursuing scientific endeavors. I did that for several years.And it was a very useful education for me to learn about the hard science is a biology and you know, physics and all the fields I mentioned. And then I did that for a few years. And then I imagine that it might be useful if we, as you get, guess this is in 2015 where there was starting to be discussions about AI and AI's potential impact on the world.And I thought that it might be important for the human race to try to evolve ourselves with AI in a way that would allow us to improve our own intelligence and awareness and abilities.And I wanted to build a brain interface company.And so I started a company and we, over the next seven years, we built a basically a wearable fmri interface. See, it's a little, actually have it here with me. I'll show it to you.Great.We built this brain interface. I now use it every day on my own brain.Every day. I do. Yep.It's one of the most advanced brain interfaces in the whole world, where you bring a really powerful brain interface in your home and you can measure your brain's biological age, you can measure early cognitive decline, you can measure even predicting things like will a person respond to a depression treatment.So that was the second idea I had, was, can we learn more about the human brain? Can we use it to have better therapies.To help people with cognitive decline? And could it help us? Learn faster and better with AI. And so those are my first two endeavors and investing in the hard sciences.The hard sciences. And then two is building a brain interface. In the brain interface, I invested $64 million to build that company. And then on the hills of that, I was learning a lot of things about science and about the brain and about measurement. ]
但我不确定，当下所为是否最优解？于是构建了一个思想实验——假想站在公元2500年回望：当翻阅21世纪史册，他们会如何定义这个时代？
一个世纪最终只会被简化为两三件里程碑。正如我们今日评价过往。我猜两件事会被载入史册的坐标：一，类孕育了超级智能；二，死亡被重新定义为可攻克的技术命题。这不意味永生，而是寿命延长成为清晰的技术路径：人类将寿命预期从70-100岁，持续推至150岁、180岁、250岁…直至终点不可测。
基于此，我决心成为新纪元首个"不死"实验者。虽然历史上无数追寻青春之泉者终成枯骨，但我将向世界展示："不死"是可复制的科学行动。
[And I did this specific thought experiment where I was, again, I wasn't quite satisfied that I had figured out the right thing to do with my time and resources, and I did this thought experiment where I imagined being present a few hundred years from now in the year 2,500. So if we imagine that humanity continues to improve itself at a certain rate, in a few hundred years, it may be the case that whatever intelligence exists in that point is incomprehensible to us in many ways. And I imagined they were speaking amongst themselves. And they were looking back in the history books about what happened in the early 21st century, the time that we live right now, and what would they say about our entire century? And I imagine they would might, they might think about us in the same way.We think about the third century or the second century, where we look at a hundred year timeframe.And we generalize and say, you know, these two or three big events happened and we just kind of brush over all other details of that century.Even though there were millions of people who lived rich and important lives on many fronts. And I wondered how, what would they say about this century? And I thought they would say two things. One, they would say that's.When. Humans gave birth to super intelligence in AI. And 2 is that's when humans figured out that they were no longer.Going to die.Now, that does not mean immortality. It just means that humans saw it was very clear that with advanced technologies, with AI, that they would probably be able to slowly begin extending their lifespans so that they no longer imagine a 70 or 80 or 90 or 100 year lifespan. They started to imagine 150 and then one, 80 and then 210, and then two, 50 and then 300, or a point where it's like, we don't know anymore when it's going to end. It just, we keep on getting better at this process of slowing down and reversing our aging damage. And so with that, I concluded that I would try to be the first human, if a human, ever, to try to not die in this new world with AI. Now, of course, many people throughout history have pursued the fountain of youth. They've tried many things, and usually they've died. Ironically.And so I went about this project and I thought this would be a good focus on my effort to try to introduce to the world.A scientific methodology process on how a human could approach trying to not die.]
杨轩：你这个长生计划，到底是个人需求，还是从一开始就定位成面向大众的大项目？
Bryan Johnson：我想传递的核心是：人类正处在特殊的历史节点。但普通人很难理解这点，所以得用更直白的方法。我做了两件事：第一，把自己变成探索案例：组建医学团队，筛查科学文献证据，找出最佳的长寿饮食、营养和运动方案——我自己先执行。
第二，免费公开所有结果：什么方法有效、什么无效，全部共享。
这背后有我创业期的切身之痛：整整十五年，从没人对我说"Bryan，睡眠、运动和饮食是根基"。这个行业鼓励你少睡觉、多加班，并以此为荣。所以现在我既是在做科学实验，也是在扮演当年自己需要的那个提醒者。
[ I'm, I was trying to communicate this bigger idea that we are at this really special moment as a species.But I knew that people wouldn't understand that people needed a different message to understand what I was doing.And so I thought I would do two things. One is I would make myself the explorer. And so I hired a team of doctors and we went through the scientific literature, we reviewed the scientific evidence. We then identified the diet and nutrition and exercise that proved to be the best for longevity. And I implemented that. Then I started sharing my results with everybody for free. So I'd share what things worked, which things didn't work.And then I started to try to be a positive influence in people's lives. Because when I was an entrepreneur and any other part of my life, I never had a single person in my life that encouraged me to go to bed on time. Yeah, it was always as entrepreneur, you were encouraged to work longer and to sleep less and to be brave about it and brag about it. I didn't have anybody in my life that was saying, Bryan, it's really important to sleep well and to exercise and eat well. So I started to try to play that role. So it was both do the scientific experimentation for myself and then also try to be a positive role in everybody else's life.]
杨轩：如果再创一次业，你会早点睡吗？
Bryan Johnson：会。我会把睡眠作为我的第一要务，并且会因此更成功。少睡觉能造就成功——这种观念是绝对错误的。人类需要高质量的睡眠才能正常运作。
[Yeah, if I started BrainTree again in the year of 2007.I would make sleep my number one priority. I think that if I would have done that, I would have built a better company. I think I would have been more successful.I think the idea that getting less sleep create more successful people is incorrect.The science shows that we need high quality sleep to function properly in life.]
杨轩：硅谷有追求永生的潮流。比如Google 的两位创始人创办了抗衰老的公司、贝索斯投资30亿美元建立细胞再生公司、奥特曼投生物科技公司。但你的切入方式很不一样：你把自己展示出来，并把身体指标量化。为什么用这个角度切入抗衰这个潮流？
Bryan Johnson：在我看来显而易见：健康缺个硬指标。你看百米冠军是谁、首富有多少钱，全能量化成数字。但人聊健康时呢？只剩故事和传言。我入场时就问：能不能像测跑步速度那样测健康？于是我干了几件事：公布60多个生物标志物（是全因死亡率的核心指标）；甩出12个月实验室数据记录。
我的目标从来不是当第一，而是给大家引路——证明普通人按这套测量+科学验证的流程，就能达到顶尖健康状态。
[One of the ideas that seemed apparently when I started was that when somebody speaks about health.There's no quantitative way to speak about it.It's typically spoken about in stories. Or anecdotes, but it's not like it's a measurable thing. Like who is the world's fastest person in the 100 meter dash or who is the richest person in the world? Who has, you know, the most money in a bank account? And so what I wondered.Is there a way for me to become the healthiest person in the world and to do so quantitatively? And this would introduce to the idea to a world, the world that health can, in fact be measured and biological age can in fact be measured. And so I've, I have shared a few weeks ago, I shared over 60 biomarkers that are predictive of all cause mortality of longevity, and I shared 12 months of historical data of these measurements. And I also shared my actual lab results. So my goal is not to be No. 1. My goal is to help other people become No. 1 as well. Because then you show a process that works, that when you measure somebody's body and you apply scientific evidence, that they, too, can achieve remarkable health stats. And so my goal really is to help everyone achieve this biomarkers.]
杨轩：科技领域里，手机公司习惯"不服跑个分"，AI大模型拼竞赛排名——你这套健康量化体系，灵感就来自硅谷科技业的这种数据崇拜吗？
Bryan Johnson：完全正确。人类最热衷追逐可测量的圣杯。想想社交媒体：粉丝数、浏览量就是权力勋章。健康领域的问题在于：当所有努力无法变成可比较的数字，人就失去进步动力。我的解决方案很简单：让健康成为可攀登的排行榜。当改善身体指标能提升你的"段位"，行动就自带引擎。
[ Yes, that's exactly right. If you look. At the systems that invite humans to be the most enthusiastic in pursuit, its things that people can count.So if you think about social media, people understand that in terms of a number of followers number of views. So people love numbers, they love status, and they love rank. And so the question was simply, how can you make health something. That bestows rank and status? Because otherwise, a person may not be motivated to improve their health. But if they know that they could actually be viewed by other people to have a higher status, it's a very positive thing.So for society that, you know, when when you're when you're trying to create a community of people that are trying to be good at a certain thing. And if we want people to be motivated to do good things, having numbers behind this is a very positive motivator.]
海若镜：作为医疗观察者，我好奇：抗衰奥运会的评价体系有共识吗？业内对您这些生物标志物指标是否存在质疑？
Bryan Johnson：这正是症结所在。我2020年启动这个项目时看到：专家在每件事上都在打架。一个人想健康作息，查书、问专家、听播客——能收到十几种矛盾方案。我的解法很硬核：跳过主观争论，直接锚定数据。举个极致案例：放90岁老人和2岁幼儿在一起，谁都能分辨年龄差异——这说明健康本就可被皮肤状态、行动能力等指标量化。当专家再争吵时，我只问："你的血糖数据是多少？科学证明这指标关联全因死亡率——请用同样标准说话。"他们永远吵不完，但要求反对者公布可比数据，就能把虚无争论变成具体技术对标。这就是我公开全部生物标志物的原因。
[ Yes, of course. So this was one of the things that we were trying to address is that when I started.Blueprint. Don't die in 2020, in 2021. What I saw was that.Everybody disagreed with everyone about everything. And that's very challenging for somebody if a person wants to become healthy, if they want to have a good diet with good nutrition and they want to exercise and they want to sleep well. And then they go out and then read books and listen to podcasts and speak to experts. Everybody is going to tell them different things. And so what I wanted to say is, wouldn't it be great if we moved beyond human opinion and we just looked at the data? So at the very, at a very basic level. If you had a person who's 90 years old next to a person that is two years old and you ask somebody who's 90 and who's two, everyone, everybody is going to get it right. You're not going to confuse a 90 year old as someone who's 2. And so we know intuitively that bilateral age can be deduced by the quality of someone's skin, by their mobility, by all these different markers of the body.And you could begin making it a quantitative endeavor. So that way when experts disagree, you can just point the data and say this is my blood glucose level. This is what the evidence says about how blood glucose levels predict all cause.Mortality. And so it's never going to be the case that health authorities or experts will agree, they will always disagree. And what I've tried to do is reduce that con, try to create a conversation where that conversation is based upon data and not storytelling. In that way, it's a much more positive, constructive conversation.And this is why I've shared all my biomarkers. Of course, I have many people who disagree with my approach. I, there's many people who think they know how to do it better. And my response to them is share your biomarkers. So if you disagree with me, you do your protocol, you implement your health practices and then share your biomarkers and let's see, are they better than mine or are they not? And that way it becomes very practical and very tangible. Otherwise, people feel very confused.]
抗衰落地教程
杨轩：大家最想向你询问怎么能够"Don't die"，其实你也多次讲过，最重要是三件事：第一是睡眠，第二是吃的好，第三是锻炼，以及停止不健康的生活方式（抽烟、喝酒等）。因为你尝试了太多的前沿抗衰科技，这"基础三件套"的效果在你的整体抗衰效果里能占几成？
Bryan Johnson：80%。大家总问我怎么能简化，那么我可以简化成一个核心指标：睡前静息心率。
具体来说：先测量，你可以戴手环直接看数据，或手指压住脖子血管数6秒心跳×10；如果你今晚躺平放松后测出60次/分，这是你的基准线，那么你就要争取降到55次/分。
我发现几件事会显著影响心率：第一，晚餐时间。比如你晚上10点睡就6点吃。但我会提前8小时禁食，现在睡前心率稳在44次/分。但我要是拖到睡前一小时吃东西？直接飙到60次/分。
第二，放松缓冲。别妄想9:59关电脑，10点就能睡着。得给大脑"关机仪式"——把烦心事写纸上、深呼吸，让大脑清空。
第三，酒精警报。睡前来一杯，心率直接飙升。
为什么盯死睡前心率？ 因为睡前心率上涨会毁掉你的睡眠；睡得不好，第二天运动计划大概率泡汤；不在状态，垃圾食品诱惑指数飙升。
控制它，就等于给生活装上了自律引擎。
[Probably,80% Well.And I would even say for those listening that want even more practical.Advice. I would share this, that if I try to distill everything I've Learned into one biomarker. because people always ask me, okay, Bryan, what you do is.Cool.But also it's complicated. Can you please make it easy for me? This is how I would make it easy. I would say that the very best thing for somebody to focus on is the resting heart rate before bed.And so if a person has a wearable, they can see the resting heart rate through the wearable or they can just put their fingers on the side of their neck and take their pulse to count heartbeats for six seconds and then time that by 10.So let's say you, so when you lay down to go to sleep tonight, when your head hits a pillow. Take a few breaths and calm yourself down. Yourself down.And then take your pulse or look at your wearable. And see what your resting heart rate is. Let's say it's 60 beats per minute. Your goal is to now lower your resting heart rate to 55 beats per minute. Try to drop it five beats per minute. And what you're gonna find is there's a few things that significantly affect your heart rate. One is it's better to eat your final meal of the day earlier. So if your bedtime is at 10 PM, it's best to be finished eating by around 6 PM or so. I eat my final meal of the day eight hours before I go to bed because it allows my body to digest the food and be finished. So when I put my head on the pillow, my arresting heart rate is 44 beats per minute. When it's 44 beats per minute, I'm gonna have a perfect night sleep.If I eat close to my bedtime, an hour before my bedtime, my heart rate will be around 60 beats per minute and it's going to ruin about 30 to 40% of my sleep. People are also going to find that if your bedtime is ten PM, for example, that you can't just work until 9:59 and then put your head on the pillow. You need to calm your body and mind down. You need to rest from the data activities. You need to maybe journal down some things you're worried about or stressed about. So wind down routine. People are also going to learn that if you drink alcohol close to bed, that's also going to raise your heart rate. And so the reason why I talk about heart rate is it's your best accountability partner in life. Now, you know if anything you do that increases your heart rate before bed is going to ruin your sleep. And when your sleep is ruined, it ruins exercise the next day because you don't feel motivated. And then when you don't feel motivated, you're going to eat bad food. So this one marker really helps people establish life habits that bring their entire life into alignment.]
杨轩：但很多普通人会说：Bryan，你讲的都对，可抗衰是你的全职工作！我们被生活撕扯到意志力归零，根本学不来这种自律——普通人该如何践行你说的这些方法？
Bryan Johnson：但我的真实生活是，担任三个公司的CEO，一睁开眼就开始工作。我从没这么忙过，也从没面对过这么多压力。
所以，最重要的是创造一个"体系"。比如，如果你是"996"，那么9点下班，就尽量在11点睡觉，睡8小时，早上7点醒来，可以锻炼一下，9点去上班。——关键是要养成生活习惯，而不是事到临头临时决策。
以及996其实是一个文化习惯，而大家会相互模仿。所以应该改变文化，让11点上床睡觉变成一件很酷的事情。
[ I actually have 4 full time jobs. I am the CEO of three different endeavors. So a lot of people think that I spend my entire day on anti aging. That's just not true. I work from the moment I get up. In my mind, I'm working. I do, of course, exercise. I do eat well. I do several doctor's appointments every week. I do various therapies. But no, my life, I have never been busier in my entire life. And I've also never had more stress.So it's not the case that my world is just easy and breezy and I spend all my time doing it. I have a very challenging life. And so I'd say for other people, the most important thing is to create life systems. So for example, if your bedtime, say you, you, I think in China it's 9,9,7. Is that right? So I would say the parallel would be 11,11,7.So if you finish work at 9 PM.Then try to be in bed by eleven PM that gives you two hours to get home, you know, get ready for bed and then sleep eight hours. So you wake up at 7, you could exercise a little bit and then be.At work at 9.And in doing so, it just requires having life systems where you say you're going to eat at a certain time of day, you're going to go to bed at a certain time of day, you're not going to drink alcohol because you know it's bad for you. So I would say it really is about making life habits and not trying to decide things in the moment. And really importantly is these are just cultural habits.Oftentimes.Most people do what other people do. If it's going to sleep at eleven PM becomes the norm, other people going to sleep at eleven PM. So we really much are, we really are a humans copy other people's behavior. And so the goal here is to change culture so that it is cool.And okay for people to go to bed on time and get high quality sleep.]
杨轩：说到文化影响，你提过一个尖锐现实：满街食品广告轰炸下，你以为自己在决定吃什么，其实是被商业机器洗脑。（此外，现代人刷手机成瘾，很难放下手机早睡）。普通人的意志力在系统化营销（以及算法的支配）前不堪一击——对这种困局，有解法吗？
Bryan Johnson：我建了几个互助群。比如有个糖瘾小组，但成员压力大就忍不住深夜吃糖，屡戒屡败。于是设立了一条游戏规则：破戒者必须拍照发群——吃了两块饼干还是十块，都得亮出来。这就融合了责任感、社交性、安全感。挣扎的时候，分享出来。作出正确决策很难，但跟其他人一起会变得容易。
[I'm in several chat groups. With friends that are going to this same situation now, where, for example, in one chat group, it's a bunch of people who feel addicted to sugar.But they have a very hard time skipping sugar. They eat sugar when they're stressed. They eat sugar late at night. And so I made it a fun game where now if anybody eats sugar, they have to post a picture in the group what they ate. Now when they do that, of course, there is a certain amount of accountability that you don't necessarily want to be the person that is sharing with a group that you just ate two cookies or 10 cookies, but everyone has agreed to be completely honest.And that kind of thing makes it fun. It makes it accountable, it makes it social and it makes it safe to share that when people are struggling with a certain thing that it's okay. That's what it means to be human and nobody's gonna be perfect and that's okay. But they're not alone and they can improve themselves by going through this process. So it really is about accountability, community, friendship and a safe place to be open. That eating well is very hard and that making good decisions is very hard, but having other people to do it with makes it so much easier.]
杨轩：所以人类需要社群支持……还有个好奇点：你说"Don't die"时，和主流的"抗衰"（anti-aging），是一回事吗？
Bryan Johnson：很多人批评"Don't Die"这个词太消极，问我为什么不叫"活得好"。但"不要死"藏着更深的观察：当AI进化速度超越人类理解时，活下去是跨国家、跨信仰的最大公约数——中国人不想今早死，美国人也不想，没谁盼着明天断气。
这不是在鼓吹永生，而是因为大家对"活得好"、"长寿"的看法都有分歧，但"别今天就死"所有人都认同。这才是最底层的合作基石——"不要死"的说法，是为了让每个人都合作起来，无论来自哪里。
[ I a lot of times when I say don't die, people will say, Bryan, that is so negative. Why are you being negative? Why don't you say something more positive like live well or live long? And the reason why I say don't die is because I'm trying to make this larger observation that AI is moving very fast, and it's moving faster than I think we are able to understand. And we have this really important question as a species, not just the Chinese, not just the Americans, not, not, no. It's like all of humanity, everybody on this planet. We have a shared interest. That things don't go poorly. We don't want things go wrong. I think we all want to live.And so what I'm trying to observe or say in the statement is that the one thing that every human on the planet has in common, everybody, no matter your religious background, no matter your national identity, nobody wants to die right now. That is something we share in common, that we do want to live for tomorrow, that we have things going on tomorrow. And so Don’t Die is an approach to try to say we can cooperate, we can get along. There is something. Now, don't die is not live forever. I'm not arguing for immortality. I'm just saying that in this moment, every human on this planet wants to live for the next moment because we have things going on tomorrow. And so it actually draws in contrast because most ideologies or ideas or statements typically say, I have a thing I'll, I have a thing I want you to do. And if you don't do it, we may go to war with each other.And don't die is actually a statement that includes everybody. And so don't die is trying to create cooperation among everybody, no matter where they come from.]
杨轩：所以它是一个连接所有人的口号。
Bryan Johnson：对。每个人对"活得好"有不同理解。当人们意见不合时，通常会互相争斗。所以这个说法是为了减少人类之间的分歧。
[Yeah, and also I'd say that if you say "live well".Well, everybody has a different understanding of what live well means. And when people disagree about something, they typically fight each other. And sometimes that leads to war. Friends don't die. There's just one meaning - Don't Die.And so you're, what it's really trying to do is reduce disagreements among humans, is trying to find the most commonality. And in any statement in the affirmative of live well, live long, it creates a opening for humans to disagree with each other. What that means, which then leads humans to typically fight about those ideas.]
杨轩：医学界似乎正在形成一种共识是：攻克心血管病、脑部疾病、癌症这三大关卡，人类就能活过百岁。虽然都意在长寿，但这种攻克疾病的路径，跟你以"抗衰"为主的路径似乎不同？
Bryan Johnson：这些说法都很明智。而我预防这些疾病的解法是：直接拧慢衰老时钟。
每人都有个表观遗传时钟（像车速表显示衰老速率），我启动项目时的衰老速率是1.0（正常值），现在压到了0.54——相当于衰老速度砍半。
你老得越慢，器官的损伤也越小。正因如此，我才发起"逆龄奥林匹克"。大家想要的不是单纯活到100岁，而是百岁时拥有50岁的身体机能。
[Yeah, I think that is those are that those are wise statements. And so one way to prevent those diseases from happening is to slow down your speed of aging. So inside each one of us, we have a clock. We have an epigenetic clock that tells us how fast or how slow we're aging. When I started this project, I was aging at a normal speed, let's just call it one. And over the past few years, I've demonstrated that I've been able to slow it out, my speed of aging to around point five four.So about half the speed. Now when you're aging more slowly, your organs have less aging damage. Your body breaks down not as fast.And so one way we can achieve those goals is to slow down our speed of aging. And this is where I created the Rejuvenation Olympics.Where I was inviting people to experiment with various therapies and protocols to say what things slow down one speed of aging the most. Because what you really want is you want to be 100 years old.But biologically you want to be 50 years old. You want your heart to structurally be like a 50 year old and functionally be like a 50 year old if you go and slow down how fast you age. So you want to have the biology of a 50 year old, even though you're actually 100. So that's one area we focused on of how do you actually slow down the biological aging process and how do you measure that in a systematic way.]
海若镜：医学研究通常要控制变量，测试单一疗法，可你却同时使用多种补剂和疗法——如何判断其中哪些真正有效？哪些可能安全但无效？
Bryan Johnson：我们设计过对照实验，最近的高压氧疗法测试就是典型：先研究文献，锁定几个核心观测项（包括增加血管生长的VEGF、菌群、炎症标志物），然后做了60多次实验并测量。治疗后复测，我的数据与文献记载基本吻合。
这虽达不到随机对照试验这种科学金标准，但是也有科学准确性，其他人也可重复试验。我其实是想为大众引入一个概念：测量生物标志物是做出正确决策的最快路径，而不是听故事。按时睡觉、饮食健康、锻炼身体是件值得称赞的事。
有时候科学家会误解这一点，他们以为我在做随机对照组研究，但其实我不是。我其实是在试图改变我们实际看待健康的文化。
[So with my protocol.We try to do controlled experiments. So we recently completed this with hyperbaric oxygen therapy, where we went through the scientific literature and we identified what we could find hyperbaric changed. So for example, one thing that it changes is that it increases something called VEGF.Which increases vascularization. And also we found evidence that it increases, it changes the microbial. We also found evidence that it changes systematic inflammation in the biomarker known as high sensitivity CRP. And so what we did is we measured these biomarkers in my body. We took like 60+ measurements and we said, here's the baseline measurement of where my body is at along these markers. And now we're going to do 60 sessions with hyperbaric oxygen therapy at 90 minutes with 2 atmosphere with 100% oxygen. And then after this therapy, we're gonna measure ourselves with the same things and we're gonna say, what changed? Now, we just completed that experiment and we got the results back. And if you look at the scientific evidence, you see that the changes that were made in me, we're not too dissimilar from what you see in the scientific literature. So in, through this experiment, we're able to isolate a therapy that does a given thing and then measure those effects inside my body. Now, is it perfect? No. But is it helpful? Yes. Is it scientifically accurate? Yes. Can other people repeat that same experiment? Yes. Can they do the measurements and protocol and the outcome? Yes. So what we're trying to do is, of course, there's a positive role in the world for people to do randomize control trials, to do RCTs, which are the gold standard way to do scientific evidence. That is wonderful. What I'm trying to do for people is to introduce the idea that the best thing to do is to measure your biomarkers.That is the fastest path to good decision making. Instead of telling stories.Measure your biomarkers and try to do so in some kind of controlled way. So I'm introducing the idea of the scientific method of measurement produces great results. But of course, many people who are doing control studies, that's also wonderful. And then I guess the other thing I'm trying to do is just change the culture around health. I'm trying to say it is a good idea. It is a cool idea. Somebody should be praised and receive higher status in society if they go to bed on time, if they eat well, on the exercise. So I'm really trying to do a, I'm trying to change the way the human race thinks about health. And sometimes scientists get that confused. They think I'm trying to do randomized control studies. I'm not. I'm trying to change the culture around how we actually approach our health.]
杨轩：你服用了大量补充剂（从每天100多片减至50片），是否有必要使用这么多？其中哪些真正有效，哪些可能无效？
Bryan Johnson：我在持续削减补充剂数量，现已降至约35种，未来还会更精简。
没有一种饮食方案能满足人体所有营养需求。你应该先补充你缺的营养素，比如缺维生素D，可以补D或者晒太阳。最好是做基础血液检测一下。
但大家不用像我一样，其实做好基本的事情——睡好、吃好、锻炼，戒掉坏习惯——已经能达成80%的效果。
[We've tried to reduce the number of supplements. So I think I'm now down to even like, I think the latest count is around 35. So it's coming down more and more. So first, there is no diet that, there's no nutrition protocol that can get the body everything it needs to be healthy for the body to get everything and needs to be healthy, it needs supplementation. And so the first thing that a person should focus on is the things they're deficient in. So the best way to know that is to do a basic blood draw. So for example, if you get your blood results back and you find out that your vitamin d levels are low, then you could do several things to increase your vitamin d levels. You could potentially get more sun. You could take vitamin d supplementation. So you have action paths on doing that. And then let's say that all of your levels are okay, there's additional things that you need to supplement. And so what I've tried to do is identify the most basic things that everybody benefits from supplementation.And trying to keep that to as a low as a number of possible. But also, I try to be very clear that people don't need to do what I do.You can achieve, you know, as we discussed before, 80% of the benefits just by doing the basics of going to bed on time, getting high quality sleep, exercising and eating well and trying to avoid bad foods. Yeah, pet your junk food, bad habits, smoking, drinking junk food, like don't do those things.But yeah, I've really tried to keep it to the absolute basics. But yes, supplementation is necessary for ideal health. And everybody, you know, there are many things that I do that the Chinese do comment, like ginger is a part of my diet. So curcumin, garlic, for example. So there's many basic things that people can include in their life that either in the form of supplementation or foods. ]
杨轩：你吃的补充剂中既有常见类型，如维生素，也有较新的品种，例如NMN、免疫抑制剂和南非醉茄提取物。你亲身体验后，对这些新型补充剂的效果有何评价？
Bryan Johnson：我们筛选补充剂的核心标准是：基于最佳科学证据，且具备面向大众的普适性。例如你提到的NMN——它随年龄增长自然衰减，需要补充。其他新型补充剂同样遵循这一逻辑。
[We identified these supplements as having the best scientific evidence that was appropriate for everybody. What we didn't want to do was to find something that would only be useful for a certain kind of person at a certain age. We wanted something that would be useful for everybody. So for example, you mentioned NMN, that naturally declines with age. And so if you want your cellular NAD levels to be high. Then you need to supplement over time. That's one example of a supplement that somebody would take that would elevate levels to where you were in a more useful state at the age 18. And the other things as well. So all of these supplements were identified based upon the scientific evidence as having robust evidence and good for a population level.]
杨轩：你认为检测非常重要，你也做了很多检测。普通人也应该像你一样去做吗？还是说市面上的常规体检就够了——血液检测、尿液检测、超声、X光都囊括在常见的体检项目里。
Bryan Johnson：不，这些（常规）检测非常好。基本的血液检查非常有用，这是多数人评估健康的最佳方式。你也可以做进阶检查，但即使每年只做一次血液检查已经是巨大进步。
[No, I think those tests are great.A basic blood draw is really useful and that is the best way for most people to assess their health.Of course, people can do many more advanced things, but even getting an annual blood draw is a really positive step.]
抗衰的前沿试验
杨轩：我们聊聊比较高科技的部分。你尝试了一些在外界看来比较先进甚至激进的新方法，比如换血、干细胞治疗，尤其是很多业内人都觉得有风险的基因疗法。你完成这几项之后，感受如何？
Bryan Johnson：我想先澄清一下，我接受的基因疗法其实并不是真正意义上的基因编辑。它只是轻微地提升了血液中一种叫 follistatin 的蛋白质表达水平。这并不涉及 DNA 的改变。大多数人理解的基因疗法，是像 CRISPR 这样的基因编辑技术，而我做的远没有那么复杂。
我所做的一切治疗都非常安全。比如说输血，在美国每天就有几百万次，人与人之间交换生物物质是非常常见的。我们尽可能依赖科学证据做决策，避免做任何额外风险。
[Well, to clarify on the gene therapy, it didn't actually change my DNA. It was a very lightweight. It was basically what's called a plasma that just increase the expression levels of a protein called folostat. So it almost doesn't even qualify as a gene therapy in the fact that most people think gene therapy, they think of things like Crisper. Or you're actually editing the genome. So it was very lightweight.And I would say also that the therapies I've done have been very safe. So we do a lot of work to make sure that anything we do is safe. For example, on the plasma, you know, those in the United States alone, there's several million done, you know, blood transfusions done per day. It's a very common thing to exchange biology between humans. So we do try to be very safe. We try to work only by the scientific evidence and we try to do, we try to never do anything that would create more risk.]
杨轩：在你尝试的这么多项目中，有没有哪些时刻、哪些项目是让你感受有点危险、不会再去做的？
Bryan Johnson：其实没有特别戏剧性的情况。但有一个意外：在抗衰领域，雷帕霉素曾是备受关注的药物（它是一种服务器官移植的免疫抑制剂，但有几项研究称它能延长寿命）。我曾连续服用多年，并持续监测血液中的药物浓度，确认剂量合理。后来停用了，因为它导致我的血糖、血脂指标异常，并引发了软组织感染。
停药一个月后，耶鲁大学发布了一项研究，用16种表观遗传时钟分析发现，雷帕霉素反而会加速衰老。
这既有趣又讽刺。作为追求"不死"的人，我竟然做了一件加速衰老的事。但我们对实验结果保持坦诚，公开了整个过程和数据。这是目前我们遭遇的最大事件。
[Nothing that dramatic. I would say that one of the bigger surprises we had was in the anti aging community, a drug known as Rappa myson has been one of the more exciting drugs in the entire community, and I was taking rapison. It's used as an immune suppressant for people who are getting organ transplants. But then they, several scientific studies show that it had a positive effect on life extension. So I was taking Rapa Mason for several years. We extensively measured my blood levels to see if we were getting the dosage correct.And then we stop because it was complicating my blood glucose and my lipids and also causing soft tissue infections. And then after stopping, a month later, a paper came out from Yale University that showed that Rapper Myson actually increased the speed of aging using 16 epigenetic clocks. And so that was really surprising to us, that one of the most interesting drugs in the world for anti-aging was actually increasing my speed of aging. And so of course, on many levels, it's very funny because it's the don't die guy who's doing things to don't die and he finds out he's doing something that accelerates the speed of aging. So that is very funny and ironic. But also we are very open with our decisions. And so we made this public. We shared to everybody what we're doing and why it may be the case that Rap Mason is fine and that these clocks are not measuring the proper effect. That's the case. But I would say that's probably the biggest occurrence we've had, but there's not been anything close to life threatening. It's been more smaller things like that.]
杨轩 ：你的一些尝试是未经 FDA 批准或非常前沿的疗法。你的动力是什么？为什么会走到这么远？
Bryan Johnson ：我正在尝试树立一个安全试验新疗法的榜样。在进行任何疗法前，我们会做大量研究，审查所有科学证据，评估可能的副作用。同时全面测量我的身体指标，了解基线数据。这样在实施疗法后，就能观察具体哪些指标发生了变化，以及背后的原因。
很多人会说："布莱恩，你太冒险了。"我会反问："你上次吃快餐是什么时候？"他们可能回答是昨天或两三天前。这时我会说："其实你才是在做高风险行为——吃快餐的风险早已被科学证明有害健康。"
从科学角度看，许多人在健康上的冒险比我更大。
[I am. I'm trying to set an example of how to safely experiment with new therapies. And the way we're trying to do that is, we do a lot of research on the therapy before we do it. So we review all the scientific evidence, we look at all the possible side effects.And then we measure my body extensively. So we say we make sure we understand what all the markers are. And that way when we do the therapy, we can see which markers change and why.Now that is a really safe way to do something. I have to remind people that people oftentimes view what I'm doing and they say, Brian, you're really risky in what you're doing. And I say, when's the last time you had a fast food meal? And they'll say something like, you know, yesterday or a couple days ago. And I'll say, you're really doing high risk things in life. You're eating fast food. And the scientific literature shows that eating fast food is really bad for your health.So in many ways, people are doing are, people are more high risk with their health than I am because we are making very careful scientifically based decisions. Meanwhile, people are forgetting that eating bad food and being chronically sleep deprived and not exercising actually creates more risk for their health. Then I'm creating for my health through these various therapies.]
海若镜 ：我们知道你试过注射间充质干细胞、轻量级基因疗法等。目前是否有更前沿、正在尝试但尚未公开的抗衰老新技术？
Bryan Johnson ：我们最近启动了一项滋养层外泌体疗法。滋养层干细胞来源于胚胎发育早期的一些细胞，这些细胞会形成胎盘结构。我本人已接受这项疗法数周。
[Yeah, we just started a therapy using trophoblast exercise.So these are some of the earliest trophoblast stem cells are some of the earliest cells develop in Latin embryo. And these specific cells formed alignment placenta. So we've been, I'm now several weeks into this therapy using the trophoblast exosomes, and the evidence behind them is interesting, and we think it's safe.And so this is probably, yeah, this is a more advanced therapy that is new.]
海若镜：在诸多疗法中，有哪些是让你觉得效果特别立竿见影的？
Bryan Johnson ：其实并没有。这主要因为我健康状态很好，身体指标已经优化到较高水平。但当我把这些疗法用到我父亲身上时，效果就很明显。他七十多岁了，感觉有天壤之别，头脑更清醒，精力更充沛，身体疼痛也减轻了。这说明疗法效果可能与个体原有健康基础密切相关。
[Actually, no.I know that oftentimes I will do therapies and I won't feel anything, but that's mostly because I'm in really good shape. I, you know, I mean, my health is very good. And so I just don't fill things very much. But I will say that what I introduce these things to my father's life. My father is now, you know, over 70 years old.And when he does these therapies, he feels a night and day difference. He feels more alert. He feels like he has more energy. His body hurts less. So I think it really is how a person, their baseline of health. But yeah, sadly, I would like to feel more. I would like to really feel, you know, it boosted mental clarity. But right now my health is so optimized and I'm in such great health, it's very hard for me to subjectively feel anything.]
关于抗衰的生意和传播
杨轩 ：我们聊聊商业部分吧。你是怎么让这整个计划运转起来的？最初是从组建团队开始的吗？你怎么说服他们？还是只要出足够高的价格，就可以组起一个团队？
Bryan Johnson ：确实是从团队开始的。长寿医学领域其实有很多医生都想参与，人才并不缺，缺的是能让他们用科学方法实践长寿医学的机会。
[Yeah, there are so many doctors in the world who want to pursue longevity medicine and are trying to find the opportunity to do so. It's such an interesting field with so much opportunity. And I think these doctors are trying to find the right opportunities to pursue it. So yeah, there's no shortage of people interested in pursuing longevity is there's just a shortage of opportunities where they can practice longevity, using robust scientific methods.]
杨轩 ：你之前提到抗衰每年要花200万美元。这个预算是你自己设定的项目成本上限，还是实际花费刚好是这么多、其实没有限额？资金分配是怎么规划的？
Bryan Johnson ：成本已经大幅下降了。最初确实很贵，因为我们在长寿领域投入了大量科学研究，还探索了各种生物数据测量方法，这确实很昂贵。但现在我们已经掌握了所有测量方式，科研流程也稳定了，整体成本降低很多。很多人看到媒体标题说我花了200万美元，以为那是执行的费用，但那其实是包含了科研、验证和测量的总成本。
实际执行的成本其实很低，甚至是免费的。比如按时睡觉不需要花钱，锻炼可以散步或做日常运动。饮食健康虽然需要花点钱，但高质量食物的价格并非不可承受。
[Yeah, the cost is actually down quite a bit. Initially, it was expensive because we were doing a lot of research in across all the scientific evidence on longevity, and we were also figuring out all the ways to measure AI. I became the most measured person in history.I'm a more bioluxury measure than any human who's ever lived. And that was expensive. But now that we've really measured, we've, we figured out all those measurements, and we also have got a stability in the scientific evidence research process, the cost of the project are substantially lower. And so a lot of people, they see the headline that it's $2 million and they think that's what it costs. But that's the cost of the research, the science and the measurement.The actual protocol is actually very low cost, sometimes even free. For example, going to bed on time doesn't cost anything. And exercising doesn't cost anything either. You know, you can go for a walk. You can do various practices to exercise on a daily basis. You know, eating well, of course, that does cost some money. Higher quality foods can cost more. So, yeah, I think $2 million a year is now something that is no longer accurate. And also I think sometimes, it dissuades people from trying to do this because they think it's too complicated or too expensive. But actually it's very approachable.]
杨轩 ："一旦创过业，终身创业人"。当你启动这个抗衰老项目时，有没有从之前的创业经历中借鉴？这次的项目和你以前创业有什么异同？
Bryan Johnson ：好问题。我确实将自己视为一种"科技产品"。过去开发金融交易软件时，我们会不断迭代升级——从版本1到版本2再到版本3，持续优化。但现实中我的状态却截然不同：白天能建立稳定的IT系统，回家后却总是失控。我会在高压工作后暴饮暴食，吃掉大量饼干，接着失眠。这种分裂感让我思考：为什么不能像建造技术系统一样建造自己？为什么不能保持一致性？既然明知过量饮食有害，为何每天仍屈服于诱惑？
所以我开始建立生活习惯系统，用工程化思维规范自身行为。这套系统让我变得可靠且可持续。很多人觉得我的生活方式像AI般机械，甚至问我："你活得还像个人吗？"
但我人生中从未如此最快乐过。睡眠充足时的精神饱满、运动后的通体舒畅、健康饮食带来的活力——这些体验远比宿醉或垃圾食品更让人愉悦。身体的健康最终会转化为真实的幸福感，所有克制都物有所值。
[That's a great question and you are exactly right. It is the same thing where I think of myself as a form of technology, where when I was building my previous company, we were building software for the role of finance for transactions. And we, of course, would program the software and improve the software every day. So it would go from version 1 to version 2 to version 3, every version getting better.Meanwhile, I would go home after a stressed day and I would eat too much food and then I would have, you know, too many cookies and then I would sleep very well. And so it was just really weird situation where during the day I built a system of intelligence that was reliable and consistent. And then when I looked at my own behavior, I was unreliable and inconsistent, and I wondered, why can I not build myself in the same way I'm building technology? Why can't I be consistent and reliable? Why can't I say, I know that eating too much food is bad for me, therefore, I'm not going to do it. Why would I cave to the temptation every day? And so what I've been trying to do is trying to build life habits and systems that allow me to be consistent and reliable. And so a lot of people view what I'm doing, and they say, that doesn't seem like it's very fun. And, you know, are you an AI and are you not living life? And what I try to explain to them is I've never been happier in my entire life. That, you know, when you sleep really well, everybody knows what it feels like. You wake up and you feel amazing. Everybody knows what it feels like to exercise and you feel amazing. Everybody knows what I feel like to eat well.And we all know that drinking really heavily and waking up the next morning feels awful and eating bad food feels awful. And so what I try to explain is that you feel really happy when you're really healthy, it's really worth the decisions.]
杨轩 ：我记得你以前推销信用卡时是销售冠军，当时有个技巧：你走进商店说"如果给我一分钟谈合作，这100块就归你"，原本想拒绝你的人就会笑笑，并给你聊聊的机会。现在做抗衰老计划时，有没有类似这种独特的"技巧"？
Bryan Johnson ：确实有类似的方法。我常建议人们尝试：睡前一小时降低静息心率，持续一周。包括把最后一餐提前到傍晚，睡前不吃零食；睡前一小时放松，可以做呼吸练习、冥想，或者给朋友打个轻松的电话，但都要保持平静；咖啡因尽量只在白天早些时候摄入。坚持一周后告诉我——保持健康到底让你快乐还是痛苦？
[Yes, I do that. That's a really good question. I invite them to lower their resting heart rate before bed for one week. I say.Take the suggestion of eat your final meal of the day earlier in the evening. Don't snack before bed.You know, have at least an hour before bed where you can wind down your body, in your mind, maybe do some breath work, some meditation, call a friend, but calm practices, you know, and have, if you're going to drink caffeine, to have it much earlier in the day, but not close to bedtime. Do that for a week and tell me if you think being healthy makes you happy or sad.]
杨轩 ：你可能是全世界传播最成名的抗衰明星。你的故事很吸引眼球，以我看来，甚至曝光了太多隐私。比如你在YouTube最受欢迎的视频是聊前未婚妻起诉你的事，播放量200多万。你还公开过几近裸体的照片和夜间勃起的性能力数据。你不会觉得暴露了太多隐私吗？为什么要做到这种程度？
Bryan Johnson ：我的遭遇其他人也会遭遇，但大家往往因害怕他人评价而沉默，最终陷入孤立无援。比如我前未婚妻曾试图勒索900万美元，威胁散布我的负面消息，除非付封口费。这在全球都很常见。多数人因害怕名誉受损选择妥协，反而助长了恶意勒索的风气。自从我公开这段经历后，每周都有三四位来自世界各地的有权势者联系我，说他们也面临类似威胁。
通过分享自己的故事，我希望能揭露这种普遍存在的社会病态现象。这对人类文明有害。我们应该建立诚信社会，而不是纵容谎言牟利。即使可能损害个人名誉，也要勇敢面对。至少需要有人率先推动这种观念，哪怕因此付出代价。
[Because the experiences that I have in life are the experiences that other people have in life. And sometimes people keep those experiences quiet. They don't wanna share because they're scared about what other people will think of them. But then they find themselves in a lonely situation. And so, for example, when my ex fiancee, she attempted to extract $9 million from me, threatening to say really bad things about me if I didn't pay her. And that is a very common thing that happens to people all around the world. And in that situation, what most people do is they don't want bad things we said about them, and so they pay money. And what that does is it creates a really bad feedback loop where society learns that you can threaten somebody with power and money, that you're going to say bad things about them and you will get money from doing so. People learn that. Lawyers learn that. And then society creates a really bad habit for letting this happen.Now, there are, of course, situations where people have done bad things. That is not what I'm talking about. I'm saying when people are making things up and not telling the truth. And so since I shared that experience, I probably have three to four people per week around the world that are, you know, powerful, rich people reach out to me and they say, I'm in a similar situation as you. I have this person in my life. There's threatening to say, they're going to say all of these terrible things about me publicly unless I paid him this money and they want to talk to me about it. And so by me sharing these things publicly, I'm able to speak to something that is happening to many people all over the world. And I don't think this practice is good for the human race. I think we want to be, have a society of trust. And I don't think we want these things to be happening in the shadows. So I'm trying to raise attention that there is honor in doing the right thing, that there's honor of servicing these things, even when it's potentially damaging to your reputation because at least a few of us have to do this to socialize this idea.]
Bryan Johnson ：夜间勃起现象也是如此。这是男女都有的生理现象，也是重要的健康指标，男性丧失这个功能五年内死亡风险会增加70%。长期睡眠不足会直接导致这类功能关闭，而很多人却以"每天只睡四五小时"为荣。实际上，只有约百万分之一的人具备短睡眠基因。
公开分享这些事，才能引发大家讨论那些禁忌的、隐藏在阴影中无人谈论的话题——睡眠质量直接影响心理健康、心血管健康和生理机能。
我知道这些话题可能让人不适，或引人嘲笑。但我想引发人们谈论那些隐秘，但深刻影响生活的重大问题。
[ The same thing is true with nocturnal erections. This is a phenomena that both men and women experience. Women have night erections just like men. And so if a person, if a man is not having nocturnal erections, they are at risk of a 70% higher likelihood of death within five years. It's a really significant health risk. Now, one of the fastest ways to reduce nocturnal erection is to not get sleep, is to be chronically sleep deprived.And so what I'm trying to do here is if a person thinks that they're being a hero by not getting sleep, if they say to their friends and coworkers, I only need four hours of sleep a night or five hours. That's probably not true. Genetically, there's only one in. I think the number is something like one in a million have the genetic disposition where you only need four hours of sleep. Everybody else needs some longer duration of sleep. So what I'm trying to do is send my friends your , which is a critical part of your psychological, physical and cardiovascular health.Depends upon sleep. And if you don't sleep, your body shuts down critical functions like your nitty directions, which is a natural process of both men and women. And so by sharing these things publicly, I'm able to speak about topics that are otherwise taboo that. Stay in the shadows that nobody talks about. And so I understand that sometimes it's uncomfortable, sometimes people wanna laugh at it. That's okay. I'm allowing people to speak about really important things that dramatically affect their lives.]
杨轩 ：你为了推广"Don’t Die"项目，真的做了很多。你成长于摩门教家庭，还曾做过两年传教士。你觉得这段经历和现在的角色有相似之处吗？
Bryan Johnson ：有很多相似点。摩门教教导我重视品格、诚实、勤奋和社区精神——从他人身上汲取力量，共享信念是人类最强大的力量来源。这些价值观至今影响着我。
但我与摩门教的分歧在于对来世的信仰。他们认为遵守戒律就能进入天堂获得永生。而我无法证实天堂、来世是否存在。存在当然也很好，但我的核心信念是热爱当下。我渴望活着。
无论相信轮回还是天堂，没有人会为了转世求死，也没有人急着进天堂，我们都想活到明天。所以我提倡"don't die"的本质是：无论信仰什么，所有人都希望延续生命。我想在所有宗教、国家和文化中寻找这种共识。
建设社区刻在我的DNA里，而用超长期视角思考生命的能力，则是我从小培养的思维方式。
[Yeah, there's a lot of commonalities. I appreciate how I was raised, where we were taught that a character was important, that being honest is important. That working hard is important, that being in a community is important, that we draw strength from each other, that shared beliefs is one of the most powerful things we can do as a species. And, you know, where I depart from my Mormon upbringing is in that faith. They basically say if you obey God's commandments, you're going to get an afterlife. You're going to be in heaven. Now, I don't know if heaven exists. I don't know if an afterlife exists. I don't know how I could know that. If it does, that's wonderful. And what I'm saying is, what I do know is I really love to live in this life right now. I'd love to be alive. And even if somebody believes in an afterlife, that's great. If they believe enough in reincarnation, also wonderful. But nobody is dying to be reincarnated. Nobody is dying to get into heaven.Everybody wants to live for tomorrow because we all have things going on. And so what I'm trying to say with don't die is no matter what you believe, no matter what you want, every, you know, whatever you believe in an afterlife, everybody wants to live for tomorrow.So I'm trying to find common ground among all religions, among all nationalities, among all people. That is the one thing. So certainly I think community building is part of my DNA and also thinking about life and timescales on a very long timeframe is something I Learned as when I was young.]
杨轩 ：社团在你的抗衰计划里扮演什么角色？你认为社团、集会，是快速大规模改变人类行为最有效的方式吗？
Bryan Johnson ：是的，我同意。
设想2035年——仅十年后，人工智能的发展会让那个时代变得难以想象。那时人们可能会说："你能相信2025年的人类还在做增加死亡风险的事吗？比如吸烟、喝酒或长期熬夜？"就像我们今天看待奴隶制一样，这些行为在他们看来是荒谬的。
我们聚集在一起，其实是在宣告人类进入一个新时代。这是人类历史上从未有过的阶段。几千年来，社会一直把财富、权力、地位视为成就，但现在我们要确立新的共识：生命本身就是最高价值。健康不是通往成功的工具，生命本身就是奖赏。
在"don't die"这个社区，我们正在灌输这样一个理念。而作为集体行动，能让每个人对此更坚定。
[Yes, I do. For example, like if one way to crystallize this is if we imagine living in the year 2035, just 10 years from now. And I think that will be like an unimaginable state because AI will have moved so fast. I think at that time point, we might say, can you believe that humans in the year 2025 would actually do something to increase their risk of death. Like smoke a cigarette or drink alcohol or chronic me a myth bedtime. That is unthinkable to them, in the same way we think about modern things like slavery or other social and moral concepts, we've come up with a species. And so getting together as a group today is to say we're walking into a new era of being human. This is a brand new phase for human existence. That has not been the case for thousands and thousands of years. It is something entirely new. And the new social norms for doing. This is acknowledging existence is the highest virtue. Existence is the greatest prize. That is not the accumulation of wealth and power and status. Existence is the prize, and that it doesn't make sense to give up your health to become an entrepreneur and ruin your health to make money. That time period is over.So that's what we're trying to instill in the community of this new Don’t Die community, is health is of the highest importance, and doing this together as a community makes us all stronger.]
杨轩 ：你的抗衰计划发展至今已形成了体系，比如你们有了社区、推出了保健品包，现在还要在北京开抗衰诊所？能否谈谈你的商业路线图？
Bryan Johnson ：我们的首批长寿诊所将落地北京和重庆。选址这两个城市，是因为我的中国合作伙伴华鹏集团在医疗领域有深厚的专业积累——他们已建立完备的医疗设施和医生团队。下一步会扩展到中国更多城市及欧洲。
[Yeah, our first longevity clinics will be located in Beijing and Chongqing. We selected these cities because our Chinese partner has strong medical expertise, establish healthcare facilities and a team of doctors there. So we we explain we plan to expand into additional cities within both China and in Europe. Our Chinese partner for doing this is Hua Pond, and they're a publicly listed company in China. And they were founded by an entrepreneur who graduated from Peking University and has been active in the life sciences sector for over 30 years.So for, except for the gene therapy and a few other advanced therapies, the, The Blueprint Longevity Clinics will offer everything I use in my protocol, including a personal doctor that will guide the customer through the longevity protocol. And this will include things I do like regular measurements, adjustments to protocol based upon data and then measuring again. And so things I've done, for example, include the hyperbaric oxygen therapy. We've even done some certain kinds of stem cells. We've been exploring total plasma exchanges. So we'll be doing many of these things, plus longevity retreat.So we plan on bringing the full Brian Johnson protocol to China and allow people to try and achieve like mine, you know, some of the world's best biomarkers using the most robust science and the best therapies.]
杨轩 ：如果你手头资金不是3亿美元，而是30亿美元，你会关注哪些与抗衰相关的领域？哪些机会在你看来特别值得投入？
Bryan Johnson ：现在有很多研发中的新型疗法。我与谷歌的创始人、Sam Altman和Jeff Bezos是朋友，他们正在推进的项目很棒，但责任和投入也很大。
随着这些新疗法逐步成熟，我们就能引入更多方案，当然，会符合中国法规。我们一定会站在最前沿，率先引入最佳新疗法给大众。这是我们的价值点。
[Yeah, I think that there's many new therapies that are being developed right now. Many of my, so I'm friends with the founders of Google and Sam Altman and Jeff Bezos, and I think what they're doing is great. And I think there's a lot of promise. And as these therapies mature, we will be offering more of these. So of course, we will be offering those which are in accordance with Chinese law. But we will certainly be on the frontiers of the therapies that can offer the very best benefits to people, that will be one of the value propositions we make.]
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